Curse

May 10, 2005, 10:03 AM // 10:03

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Originally Posted by Siren

How am I (and how have I been) forcing my style of play on others? Am I pulling some Fascist/Nazi angle here? I don't see how I've been dressing up like the GuildWars Gestapo. And, the SoC system is what you make of it. If you treat it like a chore, it's going to feel like a chore, simple as that. As much as I want to avoid bringing in Cartesian philosophy...it's all in your head.

I said that because what you define as fun, doesn't apply to everyone. But your posting it as if anyone doesn't think what you think is fun then they are wrong. I'm not trying to say your acting like a Nazi though. The SoC is flawed because it puts power into the hands of those who have gotten farther, which is unavoidable. But with no alternative then you have a system that rewards time over anything.

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Quick note: I'm no PvE fanatic. I spend a chunk of time doing PvP, whether it's Arena, guild battles, whatever. The difference is I tend to balance my playtime between PvP/PvE.

I wasn't trying to call you a PvE fanatic. It's just when I saw that part of you're post I figured it was a good time to put that out there.

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And again, it comes back to viable solutions to the current state of SoC, where having all skill options available/unlocked is not going to remedy the problem of SoC. It's merely going to serve as a distraction.

Definetly, and that also imbalances the game just as bad. Those people are whiners that aren't trying to keep the game sane. It no longer turns the game into time>skill, but what it does make is for a game where people that play PvE RP toons are gimped when they enter Tombs/Arena/GvG.

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So, let me get this straight. Because a Necromancer has Life Transfer, while a Mesmer doesn't have Ineptitude, PvP is imbalanced. Nevermind that there are other ways to work around/minimize a Necro Elite skill when you have no Elites of your own. You'd agree that it would be foolish to deny the existence of counter strategies with "normal" skills for an opposing Elite skill?

What the hell? No.

The PvP of Guild Wars revolves around the idea that during any given match 2 teams should have reliable options for skill going into a match. During the betas of UAS this was possible since everyone had every skill.

Fast Forward to April. Right now what exists is a power shift where anyone who is farming skills is going to have an easier time winning in about another week vs anyone that doesnt have the flexibility to stay competitive. This is why right now no one cares about the Guild Ladder, Tombs, or PvP in general:because right now it's all worthless if you are looking for skilled games in "high" level competition.

I also dont care for most elite skills. Most of them are horrible and anyone that goes into PvP thinking you must have a counter for an elite skill in your mind is just going to suck for a very long time till they get that notion out of their head.

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All the more reason not to reference Beta/Alpha Experiences when discussing the full retail game. The point of Beta/Alpha is testing, so naturally the game environment will be radically different. Beta/Alpha-based arguments are moot in and of themselves, no matter what is being said, because Beta/Alpha do not reflect the finished state of the game, only the process, so it's an entirely moot argument to bring in Beta/Alpha at all.

Actually just to let you know alot of game design is discussed with the developers. It's not just testing hardcore 100% of the time. There's alot of testing but also alot of discussion. The point is that based on what we saw since E3 up until the april bwe-no one expected the radical turn around for the skill acquisition system as it doesn't relieve any of the past problems.

Manderlock · May 10, 2005, 10:07 AM // 10:07

I read through the first page and a half(Its only abounch of people saying how they think it is), Still does nothing to challenge my point.

Did you think that they called them elite for no reason? When I was able to buy and elite skill in beta, I thought that it was assinine. They are considered elite skills because they are not easy to get, therefore only the players that try (and know what they are doing) can get them.

Ill say it agin. If they make them more easy to aquire, They will need to change the name.

Siren · May 10, 2005, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Think more simply than that - because a necro has grenths balance and a mesmer dosesn't have many of their interrupts and/or hexes like (insert applicable spell here) since they didn't spend the time to go to the out of the way places where these skills are found, yes you do have an imbalance.

Its a correctable imbalance, but it exists nevertheless. Anytime a skillbar is limited due to time played, there will be an imbalance. Its just that there are levels of imbalance people are willing to live with.

Laz

Well, okay, so even a simple interrupt like Power Leak or Power Spike (which the player gets relatively early in PvE, and I'd imagine in at least one of the pre-made builds in PvP) doesn't balance the playing field? Interrupts depend on player skill, so...even if they have some ability to interrupt the Necro's spell...the game is still imbalanced. Any interrupt, when utilized properly (i.e., player skill), can counter something like Grenths Balance, so I still fail to see how the game is imbalanced when it's damn near impossible for the Mesmer not to have some type of interrupt.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

I said that because what you define as fun, doesn't apply to everyone. But your posting it as if anyone doesn't think what you think is fun then they are wrong. I'm not trying to say your acting like a Nazi though. The SoC is flawed because it puts power into the hands of those who have gotten farther, which is unavoidable. But with no alternative then you have a system that rewards time over anything.

I just take a much more relaxed stance on the whole thing, and I can't see how a lot of people (both here and in the game itself) wouldn't benefit from relaxing a bit.

I mean, I'm not implying that people are wrong for playing the game a certain way, necessarily, but I do think the observation that people are getting way too stressed/pissed off over something like SoC is an observation that has merit. It doesn't seem like they're playing the game to have fun, or to relax. It looks a lot like they're just slaves to PvP...obsessing over it, basically. Is this an inaccurate assessment? If I'm wrong, please tell me so.

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I wasn't trying to call you a PvE fanatic. It's just when I saw that part of you're post I figured it was a good time to put that out there.

No harm done. I've been trying to be a bit more level-headed than the PvE Fanboys.

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Definetly, and that also imbalances the game just as bad. Those people are whiners that aren't trying to keep the game sane. It no longer turns the game into time>skill, but what it does make is for a game where people that play PvE RP toons are gimped when they enter Tombs/Arena/GvG.

And so like I (and others) have been saying, the SoC system is not broken, nor does it break the game. It's actually a very groovy idea, but just may need a small tweak to suit everyone.

It's not horrible by any stretch of the imagination, because stealing a skill from a boss, then murdering his ass with his own skill is artistically, ironically delicious. It's akin to ripping someone's leg off and beating them with it, lol. Maybe my sense of humor is just a bit more twisted than most around here, but I find that damn funny.

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What the hell? No.

The PvP of Guild Wars revolves around the idea that during any given match 2 teams should have reliable options for skill going into a match. During the betas of UAS this was possible since everyone had every skill.

Fast Forward to April. Right now what exists is a power shift where anyone who is farming skills is going to have an easier time winning in about another week vs anyone that doesnt have the flexibility to stay competitive. This is why right now no one cares about the Guild Ladder, Tombs, or PvP in general:because right now it's all worthless if you are looking for skilled games in "high" level competition.

I also dont care for most elite skills. Most of them are horrible and anyone that goes into PvP thinking you must have a counter for an elite skill in your mind is just going to suck for a very long time till they get that notion out of their head.

If Elites aren't terribly important (in all essence, merely souped-up versions of various regular line skills), why the mass player obsession to acquire them? Why the uproar? If they're mediocre at best (although, I'd be hard-pressed to find someone who says Energy Tap is better than Energy Drain), why are so many people frazzling themselves over "completing" their characters? That just boils down to nutjobs, lol.

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Actually just to let you know alot of game design is discussed with the developers. It's not just testing hardcore 100% of the time. There's alot of testing but also alot of discussion. The point is that based on what we saw since E3 up until the april bwe-no one expected the radical turn around for the skill acquisition system as it doesn't relieve any of the past problems.

Okay, but from a pure common sense standpoint, did we really expect all the skills to be available to us at the start of the game in the full retail version?

eventhorizen · May 10, 2005, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Think more simply than that - because a necro has grenths balance and a mesmer dosesn't have many of their interrupts and/or hexes like (insert applicable spell here) since they didn't spend the time to go to the out of the way places where these skills are found, yes you do have an imbalance.

Its a correctable imbalance, but it exists nevertheless. Anytime a skillbar is limited due to time played, there will be an imbalance. Its just that there are levels of imbalance people are willing to live with.

Laz

Thats just it, your skill bar will be imbalanced due to how you play. Dude if you cant put up with the RPG section of this game at all, then this is not the game for you. They cant give everyone access to all their skill because that would mean the RPG aspect of the game would be irrelevant, and they cant give the PvP only builds access to all their skills because then an RPG characterin PvP would be unbalanced.

It is time for you to accept that in order to have a game like GuildWars, you are going to have to collect skills. Not only that but its far better to have to go out and capture elite skills from an enemy than buy them, because that way a skilled character, or even a lame noob, can run up to the relevant boss, capture the skill when it gets used, then die. If thats possible, I myself have not used one yet.

What it boils down to is that although you might not have the time nor the patience to go 'grind' your PvP character up to acceptable levels, this game is not designed with you in mind.
You cannot argue, if you have played anything other than a PvP only character, that large amounts of usual grind for mmorpg's has been removed. If specific aspects have not been removed then I for one hope they dont not get altered for the ease of one group of players and to the dismay of another group.

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 10:09 AM // 10:09

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Until then take you lame preconceptions about how your initial character choice determines your skill at Guild Wars, and stick them somewhere I can expose in a tournament hopefully soon.

Do you even understand whats been said in this thread? You're not going to have a bigger skillbar than the devoted pvp players who stick with the game. They're not doing pvp right now - they're doing pve to stay even with the curve of pvp and they hate it.

You may be the most skilled GW player in the world, i don't care. What this thread started out as and what most of the pvp players have been arguing is that the SoC is grind. PvE doesn't teach you anything useful for pvp, the monster AI is pathetic compared to a human. That you can make the leap between the two means nothing, Making arguments that you have to 'master' pve to become good at pvp similarly means nothing. There is nothing to master in pve that isn't available in pvp - the converse is not true. All thats left is a time sink which requires no real skills to accomplish, and offers as its reward the ability to be competitive. Thats it. Not uber, not ultra powerful, just freaking average. Try to wrap your brain around that idea.

Laz

eventhorizen · May 10, 2005, 10:13 AM // 10:13

It takes what? 20-30 hours to rush through the PvE part of the game, collect a decent amount of skills, and then ascend. Even if you could play 1 hour per day maximum thats less than a month it will take to get a PvE character through the 'grind' to a decent level.

Seriously how long do you plan to play GW for? 10 minutes a day for a week? If you cant wait and want it all now, then grow up. If you cant stand the PvE part of the game, dont play it!

May 10, 2005, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

It takes what? 20-30 hours to rush through the PvE part of the game, collect a decent amount of skills, and then ascend. Even if you could play 1 hour per day maximum thats less than a month it will take to get a PvE character through the 'grind' to a decent level.

Seriously how long do you plan to play GW for? 10 minutes a day for a week? If you cant wait and want it all now, then grow up. If you cant stand the PvE part of the game, dont play it!

right now alot of guys are hitting over 140 hours, and one in my guild is already over 200. They still dont have enough skills or items to be flexible in non-newbie PvP and you even think anyone not farming is going to have as much as them? You're being completely delusional or just want to troll.

btw if you havent found out the whole reason Elite skills are called elite, at the end of that thread Scyne links to this one:
http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=71

eventhorizen · May 10, 2005, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Do you even understand whats been said in this thread? You're not going to have a bigger skillbar than the devoted pvp players who stick with the game. They're not doing pvp right now - they're doing pve to stay even with the curve of pvp and they hate it.

You may be the most skilled GW player in the world, i don't care. What this thread started out as and what most of the pvp players have been arguing is that the SoC is grind. PvE doesn't teach you anything useful for pvp, the monster AI is pathetic compared to a human. That you can make the leap between the two means nothing, Making arguments that you have to 'master' pve to become good at pvp similarly means nothing. There is nothing to master in pve that isn't available in pvp - the converse is not true. All thats left is a time sink which requires no real skills to accomplish, and offers as its reward the ability to be competitive. Thats it. Not uber, not ultra powerful, just freaking average. Try to wrap your brain around that idea.

Laz

Hey listen moron, you cant have everything your own way? Have your rattle back, and stop insulting me you got that? I shouldnt have to put up with people like yourself insinuiting im some kind of fool because I dont happen to like what your saying.

As I keep saying to you, no one is forcing you to play this game. I guess if you whinging has enough of an echo, that it might affect the sales of the next chapter of the game, then the developers will alter Guild Wars to suit you. I hope not, but that has a tendency to happen, simply because the moaners are more vocal than the supporters.

Its a grind, we hate it, its unfair, moan moan, there is a big X at the top right, hit it and save us all the suffering of your bitter tongue. I hear Counter Strik has no levels, dunno if you have to collect guns or not, dont play it, but I hear it suits childish whiners with the attention span of a flea perfectly.

Just wanted to inform you, hard as it is becoming, that mastering PvE has never been mentioned, but often I have spoken about mastering this game. Something I would love to do, although I admit its not very likely, and its it not even a point worth debating 2 weeks after release....

So in order to be able to compete you have to play through large portions of a game. I bet the developers are hating that.
Signet of Capture a grind? Only if you cant appreciate the rest of the game apart from the PvE, in which case everything is a grind, in which case stop your moaning and refer to my suggestion about playing Counter Strike...

If you cannot see why, for the overall affect of the ENTIRE game, SoC works the way it does, then you are an idiot. If you see why but want it changed anyway for your own ease then you are a selfish fool, and should be listened to very rarely.

Manderlock · May 10, 2005, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

right now alot of guys are hitting over 140 hours, and one in my guild is already over 200. They still dont have enough skills or items to be flexible in non-newbie PvP and you even think anyone not farming is going to have as much as them? You're being completely delusional or just want to troll.

btw if you havent found out the whole reason Elite skills are called elite, at the end of that thread Scyne links to this one:
http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=71

Get off your calling everyone (but yourself) a troll stance. This thread has gone to the wayside. Partly because of me, Ill admit it, but you had just as big a part in the trolling as me. Dont start calling people that just disagree with you a troll.

I am leaving this thread saying that it is correct as is.

EDIT: you added that link in there, agin that does nothing to disprove my point. they where still call elite skill, and yall were nieve to belive that they would be avalible to people that didnt work for it.

Keure · May 10, 2005, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

It takes what? 20-30 hours to rush through the PvE part of the game, collect a decent amount of skills, and then ascend. Even if you could play 1 hour per day maximum thats less than a month it will take to get a PvE character through the 'grind' to a decent level.

Seriously how long do you plan to play GW for? 10 minutes a day for a week? If you cant wait and want it all now, then grow up. If you cant stand the PvE part of the game, dont play it!

If you really think 20-30 hours will grant the flexibility required for real PvP you are quite sadly mistaken.

As for the main topic, I can completely understand how the PvPers feel in terms of there being *no alternative* but to PvE for 100+ hours just to stay competitive.

Unfortunately no real solution comes in mind to me at this time.

eventhorizen · May 10, 2005, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

right now alot of guys are hitting over 140 hours, and one in my guild is already over 200. They still dont have enough skills or items to be flexible in non-newbie PvP and you even think anyone not farming is going to have as much as them? You're being completely delusional or just want to troll.

btw if you havent found out the whole reason Elite skills are called elite, at the end of that thread Scyne links to this one:
http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=71

Im not debating the fact those who dont 'farm' are going to be at a serious disadvantage, im saying if you dont like this game then leave it, or accept it, or do what whining PvP'ers do to every game that isnt a shoot kill repeat, and try and get the devs to change it.
Want to troll? Hush now badass, I know PvP only builds automatically come with a cape saying 'I AM TEH H4RD', but actually youll see im trying to say that this game overall if you can consider the entire game is something different from the norm, and extremelly pleasing to be a player of. Then again I have the patience to put in a bit of effort to get the skills, items etc. and hopefully the knowledge to play the game at a high level.

All I see though is people who came to Guild Wars to PvP whining about not having access to everything, saying they got conned or some crap with the game description etc. and trying their best to insult/humiliate/slap down any opponentof their arguements.

Grow up gents, the last thing we gamers need is another Breath of Fresh air destroyed by some instagankers intent of having things their own way.

May 10, 2005, 10:34 AM // 10:34

If you two would actually read what people are saying and stop being retarded you would stop looking like idiots.

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 10:42 AM // 10:42

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Hey listen moron, you cant have everything your own way? Have your rattle back, and stop insulting me you got that? I shouldnt have to put up with people like yourself insinuiting im some kind of fool because I dont happen to like what your saying.

You insult yourself far more effectively every single time you post than i could ever dream of doing.

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Just wanted to inform you, hard as it is becoming, that mastering PvE has never been mentioned, but often I have spoken about mastering this game. Something I would love to do, although I admit its not very likely, and its it not even a point worth debating 2 weeks after release....

Alphas have been playing for over a year now i believe. People who preordered have been playing off and on since september of last year (maybe october). That you have only played since release has no bearing on this argument.

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So in order to be able to compete you have to play through large portions of a game. I bet the developers are hating that.
Signet of Capture a grind? Only if you cant appreciate the rest of the game apart from the PvE, in which case everything is a grind, in which case stop your moaning and refer to my suggestion about playing Counter Strike...

As you continue to fail to grasp, people like the pvp portion of the game. I'm assuming you meant pvp because your paragraph would make even less sense if you actually meant pve.

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If you cannot see why, for the overall affect of the ENTIRE game, SoC works the way it does, then you are an idiot. If you see why but want it changed anyway for your own ease then you are a selfish fool, and should be listened to very rarely.

and if you cannot see why, for the overall effect of the game, SoC is just a ploy by a.net to add even more time to skill acquisition you are precisely what you have proven yourself to be every time you open your mouth - and should seriously consider winning a darwin award.

Laz

eventhorizen · May 10, 2005, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keure

If you really think 20-30 hours will grant the flexibility required for real PvP you are quite sadly mistaken.

As for the main topic, I can completely understand how the PvPers feel in terms of there being *no alternative* but to PvE for 100+ hours just to stay competitive.

Unfortunately no real solution comes in mind to me at this time.

There is no solution, those are the facts, accept them, deal with them, continue to expand your character, or leave the game. At this time that is the way it is.

Having to PvE for non standard stuff keeps the game even, everyone that competes in the future will have to go through the same process, whether they like it or not. This manages to keep a PvP element and a PvE element of the game on a level footing as far as the competitors go, and lets everyone have access to the whole game, indeed 'forces' everyone to remain equal regardless of their aims.

If its a grind to Capture Skills from bosses because of the PvE then itsa grind to PvE. Guild Wars is not PvP or PvE but is the entirety of what came on the 2 CD's. If you do not like the game, the whole game, no one is forcing you to play it, but do not about having to do certain things in a game, when that is the game.

You dont like it, dont play it. Claiming its unbalanced because it makes you do things you dont like? Like I say grow up or stop playing.

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 10:51 AM // 10:51

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You dont like it, dont play it. Claiming its unbalanced because it makes you do things you dont like? Like I say grow up or stop playing.

Or we could take the non-idiotic option and voice our complaints and concerns in a place where a.net can hear them.

Oh yeah, that entire 'patch' concept...its so new and untried, we better just take it like men and never dare hope that it'll change.

Laz

Keure · May 10, 2005, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

There is no solution, those are the facts, accept them, deal with them, continue to expand your character, or leave the game. At this time that is the way it is.

Having to PvE for non standard stuff keeps the game even, everyone that competes in the future will have to go through the same process, whether they like it or not. This manages to keep a PvP element and a PvE element of the game on a level footing as far as the competitors go, and lets everyone have access to the whole game, indeed 'forces' everyone to remain equal regardless of their aims.

If its a grind to Capture Skills from bosses because of the PvE then itsa grind to PvE. Guild Wars is not PvP or PvE but is the entirety of what came on the 2 CD's. If you do not like the game, the whole game, no one is forcing you to play it, but do not about having to do certain things in a game, when that is the game.

You dont like it, dont play it. Claiming its unbalanced because it makes you do things you dont like? Like I say grow up or stop playing.

...ya know, I'm enjoying PvE quite a bit, and am not personally affected by the current system. Maybe I want to eliminate the randomness that elite skill hunting involves, but otherwise I don't really care.

However, others do, and I only commented in order to acknowledge that I can see how those who don't enjoy PvE, but enjoy PvP are not satisfied with how things are, and that I don't have any ideas right now to possibly make things better for them.

To mark me with the "omfg little kid grow up" tag is pretty arrogant on your part.

eventhorizen · May 10, 2005, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Dude people who the take time to split up other peoples posts and insult them paragraph at a time tend to make themselves look bad, at least in my eyes.

Im going to ask you now to stop insulting me personally on these public forums, regardless of your opinion of me. If you think you have disguised your insults well enough in your text then we can let the moderators decide. If I insult myself, that is my right, and no one elses.

You playing since Alpha has no bearing either. Even if it did mean you came into the game an expert, your advantage will last as long is takes others to understand the game.
I dont think I have failed to grasp the fact people like PvP, its my favourite aspect of the entire game, indeed its the aspect of the game thats going to determine how long this game lives. Games that offer fun team based competition are what online gaming is almost 100% about. Few exceptions ofcourse.

What annoys me though is people who dive into the game, with extremelly limited skill pools, basic weaponry etc. then coming online hammering their point across like its the law, and speaking to everyone else like they are fools. I dont suppose that will change though.

All that aside it comes down to this. You and people like you, almost soley PvP only players with little interest or desire to play the RPG side of the game have an issue. This issue, funnily enough, relates to the difficulty, or time required to attain a fairly powerful object in the PvE enviroment.
*SHOCK* Some people (alot, most? dunno) enjoy the RPG enviroment, indeed the entire game, as a whole. It would most likely, for all players, require a non mission based, non roleplay grind to achieve this object if its removed from mission bosses (ala purchasing it). Do you and others who have this problem feel it is right to upset the balance of an entire game in terms of missions and gains versus the availablity and ease of gain, in order to make your aspect of gaming more 'balanced' versus what others would think as 'unbalanced' or 'experiance altering/dumbing down'.

If you do think that an RPG element of the game should made less roleplay stylee, and easier to get without RPGing so much, at the loss of some RPG content but for your own ease of playing, do the game developers agree?

That is the question here, should the RPG element be made less Roleplaying, less indepth, less impressive for a RPG'er, so that players who dont like it can have a slightly easier time reaching their aims?

Sidra Meum · May 10, 2005, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Where did this asinine concept of 'working' in order to play a game come from? everquest?

Laz

Nooo not Everquest!! Ultima Online! It was, after all, the first MMORPG. Nothing like spending 500 + hours working on a SINGLE skill to get GM in it. I can't see how people can even BEGIN to compare working 700 hours to reach level 32, or 500 hours to work a tailoring skill (which is considered "one of the seasy skills") to "having" or "being forced" to PvE/Grind/Capture/Farm for elite skills or high end runes when its a bonus of the game that they CHOOSE to do. Its a simple WANT vs. NEED. You do not NEED these things to PvP nor be or stay compedative in this game. Simple as that. You only WANT them. As I've said. ArenaNet gives you everything they said they were going to. The basics that you need to PVP in the game. Heck, they even give you more then just that. What they do not give you, and (heaven forbid) expect you to actually play the game to get yourself, are the items you WANT and only feel that you "need".

Keure · May 10, 2005, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Apology accepted.

People play games to have fun (well...most of them do, anyway).

PvE and PvP are separate enough in terms of gameplay that I can understand how people would enjoy one part and not enjoy the other.

What Anet has done is interlock the two together through the skill acquisition system. If you want PvP in its full glory, you need to spend 100+ hours on PvE.

To some people, PvE is not fun.

If you play to have fun, but have to spend 100+ hours on something that's not fun to you before you can have fun...

eventhorizen · May 10, 2005, 11:54 AM // 11:54

You play a different game?